Yesterday, I was with Dr. Mickey Ask at the Veterans Hospital in Loma Linda and we were discussing Kohlberg's Six Levels of Moral Development and Graham. Mickey began sharing other books of the few POWs during World War II, in Europe and in China, who chose to ascend in Godly principles while the majority sunk into survival mode--robbing the dying and the dead. Isn't it strange how God can reach the demonic in the grave yard and the thief on the cross; while losing the masses? Here is an example of a mind -- after surviving the Japanese death camp and lying in the death house ravaged by disease and the transformation that occurred in his life. Standing in Nebuchadnezzer's furnace has a way of removing dross like nothing else...may God perfect us to embrace the truest and purest of Apape's principles...

Quote from Epilogue:

"...We were convinced that we had learned lessons important to mankind and we were eager to implement them. We thought we had come home to a world at peace; instead we found a world already preparing for the next war. Having had as much reason to hate as anybody, we had overcome hatred. Yet, we returned to a world divided by hatred. Communist hated capitalist; capitalist hated communist; Arab hated Jew; Jew hated Arab; labour hated management; management hated labour; politician hated politician.

A moral cynicism was sapping the strength of society. Half-lies were not only condoned but regarded as smart. There were many who had remained untouched by the welter of the holocaust. What had happened on the battlefields, in mass bombings, in concentration camps – the blood, pain, suffering, heart-break and death – remained totally beyond their comprehension. They did not share in the hopes and agonies of mankind; they had no sense of involvement; they had no part in the universal fellowship of those who bear the mark of pain. Ever so brightly and ever so meanly they prostrated themselves before the Almighty Dollar and the Trembling Pound. We encountered some who were actually sorry to see the war end because they had such a good time and had done so well financially. Nations had survived this war, but few people asked, 'For what?'

The men with dry souls said, 'Let us go back to the good old days.' They wanted to draw the blinds on everything that had happened in between. There were no lessons learned, no decisions made, no risks taken, no new pilgrimages started, no adventures in partnership with God begun.

Everyone spoke of seeking security. But what did security mean but animal comfort, anaesthetized souls, closed minds and cold hearts. It meant a return to the cacophonous c**ktail party as a substitute for fellowship, where, with glass in hand, men would touch each other but never meet. They would speak, but nothing would be said and nothing heard, they would look at their partners, but would not see them. With glassy eyes they would stare past them into nothingness.

It meant a return to the cheap love made possible by contraceptives, wherein male and female used each other as a thing, taking their share of sex in the same way as they took their c**ktails and wondering where was the fulfillment, where was the satisfaction. With the despairing cry of 'I must be loved!' They would return periodically from the psychiatrist's couch to seek new partners and new problems. All the while their ears remained closed to the divine imperative, 'Thou shalt love!' It meant a return to the sedative at night and the stimulant in the morning; drugged sleep dulled the pain of existence and perked-up glands helped one face the fears of the day.

It meant a return to the faceless mass; to culture dragged down to the level of advertising media; to education, not as an instrument for enrichment and enlightened minds, but as a tool for mass conditioning. It meant a return to faith in technology and the Big Machine. As their powers were used to unleash yet greater hidden forces in Nature, so men could find themselves more enslaved than ever and readier to use those forces to bring about the total destruction of mankind. The contributions of free men seeking to serve the Infinitely Great in honesty, responsibility and love would be denied. Socrates would have to drink his cup of hemlock again, the prophets be stoned afresh. Atheistic materialism would fetter men to a hard, knobbly universe in which humanity was rejected.
In short, it meant flight from God and descent into the hell of loneliness and despair.

And where, in all this, was the vision of the Infinitely Great? Where was the place for those who wished to follow the vision, inspired, sustained, and uplifted by it to find the way to serve their neighbor -- and through serving their neighbor to serve their God, and to fulfill themselves? The vision of the Infinitely Great had been revealed to us by divine grace in the prison camp by the River Kwai. Now we were back among the distraction and diversions of the materialistic world, we were determined to follow the vision...”
“To End All Wars,” by the lateErnest Gordon; pages 222-224.

These are the words of a man who experienced man's inhumanity to man for three and a half years along the River Kwai; where God transformed man's carnal, basic instincts of “dog eat dog” and “survival of the fittest;” to “self-sacrificing love” and true freedom. “Love Your Enemies:” where mercy and justice kissed and Heaven and the Cross touched hardened hearts as it did to one of two thieves, and transformed and encouraged many of the walking dead to choose to live.

[Thanks Marco, you were right...it posted when I doctored that word]

I am curious...95 reads and no comments?

Anywho...I have just returned from the prison tonight, and we had a lively discussion about eating meat...as they were asking the typical questions about clean and unclean meats on this side of the cross. "Same O, same O." Worried more about the god of food than what Paul was really saying in Romans 14. It was interesting to listen to them as they read the closing remarks of Paul...

Romans 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.(KJV)

The conversation really enlarged with these verses...along with the "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." This was the discussion that they proposed and after the fur stopped flying and the dust settled, then I was able to share what I brought... "Why then the Law?"

The inmates always enjoy when I share material from my Masters studies; and now my doctoral studies; especially, as it applies to Criminal Justice. So here was a quote from Jean Piaget, "The Moral Judgment of the Child." Which put into perspective the whole discussion on the meat; the motive and the attitude.

“...Henceforward, he will not only discover the boundaries that separate his self from the other person, but will learn to understand the other person and be understood by him. So that cooperation is really a factor in the creation of personality, if by personality we mean, not the unconscious self of childish egocentrism, nor the anarchical self of egoism in general, but the self that takes up its stand on the norms of reciprocity and objective discussion, and knows how to submit to these in order to make itself respected. Personality is thus the opposite of ego and this explains why the mutual respect felt by two personalities for each other is genuine respect and not to be confused with the mutual consent of two individual ‘selves’ capable of joining forces for evil as well as for good. Cooperation being the source of personality, rules cease, in accordance with the same principle, to be external. They become both the constitutive factors of personality and its fruit, in accordance with the circular process so frequently emplified in the course of mental development. In the way autonomy succeeds heteronomy. (Piaget, 1962, pp. 95-96.)

[emphasis supplied]

I believe "personality" could be translated to mean "character," today. What would you interpret "rules cease" to mean? No longer external, but internal? The Golden Rule becoming the driving force, free from compulsion or fear of punishment? Doing right, because it is right, without any reward or punishment? The discussions in the prison are so motivating; and these guys are all tatted down and lethal, yet, they love the presentations that entice them to think and to be drawn into higher thinking--Agape Love; from a pure heart; while surrendering the need to resort to force, fear, intimidation, and manipulation.

Sidebar:

This week I was blessed to take out books my Piaget, Kohlberg, and Gilligan from the Loma Linda University Library for my doctoral studies. Thank You, Jesus, for providing me with the material for my studies!!! Especially, at Loma Linda. Happy Sabbath!!!

This thread appears to be my own private blog...

What can one add to the essence of truth?

I loved the movie, by the way.

scott

Quote by: scott

What can one add to the essence of truth?

That's what I was thinking, but didn't know quite how to say it.

How you doing, stranger?

"Why then the law"?

Rom 5:20-21
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV

Rom 3:5-7
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? KJV

Rom 3:4
yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged KJV

Rom 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. KJV

1 Cor 9:20-21
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. KJV

God's purpose in giving us a law is to make us conscious of sin, to lead us to Christ and his eternal purpose in his grace.

This is a daily experience as we always bear about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus that his life may be manifest.

That which was ordained to life by angels, we find to be unto death; which leads to the eternal life that God has given unto us in the man, Christ Jesus in his grace and truth.

Joe

Scott,

If you loved the movie, you will really love the book!!! The person beaten for supposedly stealing the shovel, was actually beaten to death.
A young man went outside the camp to gather various plants to bring back to make medicine for the sick, was caught and led out in the morning and in front of his commanding officer and the chaplain, kneeled down a briefly read his Bible, and then looked up and told them everything was going to be okay. Then lowered his head and was beheaded. On and on, these selfless acts occurred where they would give their lives for the benefit of others. This is real Christianity in action; not a mere profession.

What power is evident when during the most extreme situations of man's inhumanity to man does Agape Love expose the degradation of man. It causes so much cognitive dissonance in the empty philosphies that various societies have embraced as nobel and honorable.


Joe,

"Why then the law?" Yes, it was given to reveal sin, but in the earth made new, it will still be in existance, what sin will it reveal then? It will not be noticed. The Lord will not have it on billboards all over the universe nor enforced by Heavenly Police, but the law of love will be in the DNA of the saints, where it was prior to the fall. I would rather see an epistle in shoes than listen to a sermon any time. The Agapeist POWs rose above the arbitrary, oligarchy rules of their captors. Saul, prior to Paul, was treating Christians the same way as he was enforcing the Law, as he was trying to stamp out sin and rebellion. What freedom Agape Love provided and provides.

Our discussions in the prisons continually study the length, depth, and breadth of 1 Corinthians 13 and the relationship skills it develops.
I love it inside the prisons; I wish the Lord would let me be a warden, and Roxanne and our dogs could live in a little cottage on the "big yard." At night, I would have Roxanne sing to them, while I visited each man during the day.

Keith: This week I was blessed to take out books my Piaget, Kohlberg, and Gilligan from the Loma Linda University Library for my doctoral studies. Thank You, Jesus, for providing me with the material for my studies!!! Especially, at Loma Linda. Happy Sabbath!!!

I too have been so blessed by at least two of these authors and their findings! I pray you are blessed in your doctoral studies and in the prison! There is no greater thrill than sharing Jesus with even a captive audience because they are willing to listen because they've been knocked down to where there is nowhere but up sometimes. From the limited experience my husband and I had at the county jail for a couple of years I can relate to much of what you say.

Keith: This thread appears to be my own private blog...

I often check on here to see if you have posted any more Keith, so if it is your private blog then it is a blessing to me and I am sure to others! God bless you and Roxanne!

Cherie

Quote by: Keith A. Johnson

Joe,

"Why then the law?" Yes, it was given to reveal sin, but in the earth made new, it will still be in existance, what sin will it reveal then? It will not be noticed. The Lord will not have it on billboards all over the universe nor enforced by Heavenly Police, but the law of love will be in the DNA of the saints, where it was prior to the fall. I would rather see an epistle in shoes than listen to a sermon any time. The Agapeist POWs rose above the arbitrary, oligarchy rules of their captors. Saul, prior to Paul, was treating Christians the same way as he was enforcing the Law, as he was trying to stamp out sin and rebellion. What freedom Agape Love provided and provides.

Our discussions in the prisons continually study the length, depth, and breadth of 1 Corinthians 13 and the relationship skills it develops.
I love it inside the prisons; I wish the Lord would let me be a warden, and Roxanne and our dogs could live in a little cottage on the "big yard." At night, I would have Roxanne sing to them, while I visited each man during the day.

Keith,

It is a mystery how the law is fulfilled in one word.

Paul and James witnessed to this in their letters to the believers.

Gal 5:14,15
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. KJV

James 2:8-9
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. KJV

Loving our neighbor, as ourselves, is the fulfillment, the fruit, the perfection, maturity of the law. Loving the Lord, our God, with all our heart and mind and strength is the foundation of this love. It is impossible to love our neighbor as ourselves without loving the Lord first and foremost with all.

The law and the prophets hang from these two commandments of love. Cursed is every thing that hangs. When someone hangs, their feet do not touch the ground, like the little he goat in Daniel 8. When birds fly, their feet do not touch the ground. Birds are taken in a snare. David prophesied of the snare that should come in the end of the world.

Ps 69:22
22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. KJV

Rom 11:9-10
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. KJV

And then the Lord Jesus prophesied of the snare that should come.

Luke 21:33-35
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. KJV

Joe

Here are more quotes of Piaget as he observed the process how external, punitive laws transform themselves in the child as it ages. It is interesting how the rules are originally applied objectively and then subjectively to include motive; instead of hardlining and broad brush stroking it without understanding the "why."

“…These two moralities are due to formative processes which, broadly speaking, follow on one another without, however, constituting definite stages. It is possible, moreover, to note the existence of an intermediate phase. The first of these processes is the moral constraint of the adult, a constraint which leads to heteronomy and consequently to moral realism. The second is cooperation which leads to autonomy. Between the two can be discerned a phase during which rules and commands are interiorized and generalized.” (Piaget, 1962, pp. 194-195.)

“But although such methods alone will put exceptionally illuminating cases within our reach. It might perhaps be possible to set afoot an enquiry into the mentality of the ‘average parent’ and to accumulate observations made in certain homogenous and comparable situations, such for example as those on trains, especially, on Sunday evenings after a day’s outing. How can one fail to be struck on such occasions by the psychological insanity of what goes on: the efforts which the parents make to catch their children in wrong-doing instead of anticipating catastrophes and preventing the child by some little artifice or other from taking up a line of conduct which his pride is sure to make him stick to; the multiplicity of orders that are given (the ‘average parent’ is like an unintelligent government that is content to accumulate laws in spite of the contradictions and the ever-increasing mental confusion which this accumulation leads to); the pleasure taken in inflicting punishments; the pleasure taken in authority, and the sort of sadism which one sees so often in perfectly respectable folk, whose motto is that ‘the child’s will must be broken,’ or that he must be ‘made to feel a stronger will than his.’” (Piaget, 1962, p. 192.)

“How does the child ever attain to autonomy proper? We see the first signs of it when he discovers that truthfulness is necessary to the relations of sympathy and mutual respect. Reciprocity seems in this connection to be the determining factor autonomy. For moral autonomy appears when the mind regards as necessary an ideal this is independent of all external pressure. Now, apart from our relations to other people, there can be no moral necessity. The individual as such knows only anomy and not autonomy. Conversely, any relation with other persons, in which unilateral respect takes place, leads to heteronomy. Autonomy therefore appears only with reciprocity, when mutual respect is strong enough to make the individual feel from within the desire to treat others as he himself would wish to be treated.” (Piaget, 1962, p. 196.)

The Moral Judgment of a Child, Jean Piaget


Now compare Piaget's second posted quote to Ellen White's:

"To direct the child's development without hindering it by undue control should be the study of both parent and teacher. Too much management is as bad as too little. The effort to "break the will" of a child is a terrible mistake. Minds are constituted differently; while force may secure outward submission, the result with many children is a more determined rebellion of the heart. Even should the parent or teacher succeed in gaining the control he seeks, the outcome may be no less harmful to the child. The discipline of a human being who has reached the years of intelligence should differ from the training of a dumb animal. The beast is taught only submission to its master. For the beast, the master is mind, judgment, and will. This method, sometimes in the training of children, makes them little automatons. Mind, will, conscience, are under the control of another. It is not God's purpose that any mind should be thus dominated. Those who weaken or destroy individuality assume a responsibility that can result only in evil. While under authority, the children may appear like well-drilled soldiers; but when the control ceases, the character will be found to lack strength and steadfastness. Having never learned to govern himself, the youth recognizes no restraint except the requirement of parents or teacher. This removed, he knows not how to use his liberty, and often gives himself up to indulgence that proves his ruin."
Education page 288

This quote is my favorite prison ministry quote, because it explains how prisoners become "institutionalized." Captain Alexander Maconochie believed that it was wrong to remove "temptation" from the inmates, that they must learn to resist and overcome temptation prior to their release or how will they be able to resist it later when they encounter it on the outside? It is easy to substitute parent and teacher with guard and parole officer, regardless, the outcome is the same....it "proves his ruin."

[Monday is my 63rd Birthday; and on Sunday, the Lord has blessed me, because I will be allowed to sit with Dr. Georg Lind, in San Diego, as he has arrived once again from Germany. He was Kohlberg's statistition for 15 years; we will be discussing moral dilemmas for my dissertation. Thank You, Lord!!! What a great b-day present! I am humbled and more than appreciative. Just prior to completing my Masters, in 09, he flew out and we spent six hours having lunch and dinner together at the seaside restaurants. A year later, I am blessed to do it again. He said he has more information for me. How much more does our heavenly Father know how to give good gifts?]

Keith: Captain Alexander Maconochie believed that it was wrong to remove "temptation" from the inmates, that they must learn to resist and overcome temptation prior to their release or how will they be able to resist it later when they encounter it on the outside? It is easy to substitute parent and teacher with guard and parole officer, regardless, the outcome is the same....it "proves his ruin."

I like what I heard Dr. Tim say about how the tenth commandment is a matter of the heart and that even taking away porn from a child molester does guarantee they will get better because they can still use that part of their brain to enforce the evil patterns even when they are not around children. (I'm quoting very loosely here) The changes must come from inside. I even know this from my own experience of working out and walking--no one can force anyone to be healthy, we all have to choose.

Thanks for sharing that about Piaget and EGW--I find it fascinating!

Oh! Happy Birthday to you Keith! I hope you and Roxanne have a great celebration!

Cherie