So recently I was thinking about all the confusion in the world about works vs. faith in Christianity, and which leads to salvation. Obviously, according to the New Testament, they're both pretty important. In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus says that good works (being a good person, helping the poor and what not) are critical, but in John (and his letter) and Paul's letters, faith is made to be more important. Paul even says at one point that we're saved by grace, not works. (Eph. 2:8-9) I guess it's open to debate what he meant by "works" exactly, but I was thinking that Jesus' main point was that salvation was achieved through works, by being a better person. He didn't like hypocrites, and he not only wanted people to do good works, but also do them sincerely. I think that to him, believing in God was a given. Everyone believed in God, it was how they were practicing their religion that Jesus didn't like.

So what about people who didn't follow the Jewish faith? What about Gentiles, pagans, ect.? Did Jesus even mean to spread his "school of thought" to these people? Or was he preaching solely to the Israelites, and only trying to get them to change their ways? Did he just have something against rich people and could he be better described as a minimalist? I think that Jesus didn't mean to spread his message to anyone outside of Israel, based on Matthew 15:21-28, which solves the works vs. faith question as well. People were expected to believe in God, he just wanted them to change how they practiced their religion.

So in conclusion that's another reason why I'm not a Christian, and I would put that in that forum but I thought the works vs. faith dicussion might be better placed in the clearer meaning forum. That and it's kind've lonely in the atheist forum.

In John 4, he spoke to a Samaritan who was a woman, both of which was an unusual thing for a Jew to do. After the woman went to the village, they met Jesus, and after meeting Him, became convinced that He was "the savior of the world." (John 4:42, from memory; too lazy to look it up).

Jesus wasn't concerned only about the Jews. There are other stories which bring this out.

I don't think it was so much the works that one practiced outwardly that was Jesus' primary consideration, but one's paradigm; how one thought inwardly. There are quite a few statements which address this.

For example, He said, "The kingdom of heaven is within you." (or "kingdom of God," don't remember which).

He said, It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, that defiles.

He spoke of new wine not going into new wine skins (I think the new wine skins were speaking of a new paradigm; a new way of seeing things).


Tom

Quote by: Tom

In John 4, he spoke to a Samaritan who was a woman, both of which was an unusual thing for a Jew to do. After the woman went to the village, they met Jesus, and after meeting Him, became convinced that He was "the savior of the world." (John 4:42, from memory; too lazy to look it up).

Jesus wasn't concerned only about the Jews. There are other stories which bring this out.

I don't think it was so much the works that one practiced outwardly that was Jesus' primary consideration, but one's paradigm; how one thought inwardly. There are quite a few statements which address this.

For example, He said, "The kingdom of heaven is within you." (or "kingdom of God," don't remember which).

He said, It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, that defiles.

He spoke of new wine not going into new wine skins (I think the new wine skins were speaking of a new paradigm; a new way of seeing things).


Tom

Very true. I also think that he believed that a person's works were determined by the level of sincerity by which they practiced them. Whether or not they were doing them for the good of other people, or God, or whether they were doing it for "show" (which made them hypocrites). So I think that he believed that is was given that they must already believe in God, but that he wanted them to do so sincerely and do things more for the sake of other people than only oneself.

Hi Tweek,

Good to "see" you again. What you say makes a lot of sense to me, and is very reasonable.

What I wonder about is why anyone would want to go to heaven if they don't want to live in a heavenly way. And you don't have to wait to go to heaven to do that.

I haven't been attending church much recently until a few months ago. But I started attending Garden Grove SDA church because of their new Pastor. He seems to address things head on. I'd invite you to church just for the "fun" of it. And I do mean fun, because Dan Smith believes Christians should have fun. His sermon this past Sabbath was "Thou Shalt Play". But he also address the tough questions more openly then anybody I know of including this topic, "Works vs faith". He wrote a book that came out about 6 years ago entitled, "Lord, I Have a Question." I'm about half way though it.
forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=34728

Garden Grove is in So. CA and I think you are from another State. So I'll just invite you to the Church's website where you can either listen or watch his sermons online at you convenience.
http://www.gardengrovesda.com/

I like to listen to a lot of stuff online when just relaxing or while doing other things that don't require much attention, like washing dishes or preparing food.

One of my favorite talks is on this website. In it, Bernard Taylor talks about things in a very objective way. I think you might enjoy it. "Whatever Happened to Conscience?"
filemgmt/viewcat.php?cid=28

On a more secular level, I happened to watch Charlie Rose interview Sean Penn on his work in Haiti, last Monday. Now why would "Spicoli" the character he played in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High", the ex-husband of Madonna, spend 6 months living in poverty to help people in Haiti? I thought it was fascinating. Toward the middle of it somewhere, they got into religion for a couple of minutes. It was a very interesting exchange.
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11127

So in case you get bored....

So what's new? What are you up to these days?

Not much really. I haven't thought about religion much lately and what I posted are about the only thoughts I've had about it. I was thinking about getting the book "Philosophy for Dummies", since I've never been into philosophy and know nothing about it, and most atheists seem into philosophy, so I thought I might try it too. It seems like a good intro to philosophy I just haven't gotten around to going to the book store and picking one up. Right now I'm too busy reading books by Margaret Weis and Tracey Hickman

Tweek,
It turns out Greg Boyd was an atheist. I was wondering if you can relate to what he says.

mediagallery/album.php?aid=15&page=1

Quote by: Dan

Tweek,
It turns out Greg Boyd was an atheist. I was wondering if you can relate to what he says.

mediagallery/album.php?aid=15&page=1

I will have to check that out. Probably a bit later this week though since it's a half an hour long, but I'm interested in hearing what he has to say.

Quote by: Tweek

...So in conclusion that's another reason why I'm not a Christian, and I would put that in that forum but I thought the works vs. faith dicussion might be better placed in the clearer meaning forum. That and it's kind've lonely in the atheist forum.

Tweek,

I have 27 years sitting around with inmates of every philosophy imaginable discussing "Love and Sanity." Warlocks, Hedonists, all denominations of Christianity, Jews, etc., and "faith and works" are closely related to "love and sanity." In the Socratic/Kohlberg/Agape/Critical Thinking class, that I facilitate, we discuss philisophical questions like, "What is the difference between unconditional love and co-dependency; though the actions can be the same?" The bottom line is; MOTIVE. "Faith and Works," the bottom line is still; MOTIVE. Unfortunately, the "carnal heart is exceedingly wicked and who can know it?" addressing the basis of the heart's problem; MOTIVE. Since a leopard can not change its spots nor an Ethiopian its skin; we are left with a world dying from the cancer of hate and selfishness, with nothing but selfish MOTIVES. Until man allows God to heal the heart's MOTIVE problem; "faith and works" or "the chicken or the egg" debate will continue to resolve nothing.

Ellen White helped me resolve my Christian "Banana Peel" walk by pointing out my MOTIVE problem. It took me away from my hateoholic condition to the source of healing. Therefore, I was led away from my carnal codependency to finally experiencing His therapeutic unconditional Agape Love. The "sowing and reaping" mode; instead of attempting to "reap without sowing" mode. A hateholic is incapable of agape love; for the MOTIVES are selfish and self-centered. It also helped get me off of the "tightrope" of trying to "be saved." Something I no longer think about. That concept has left the view of my rearview mirror decades ago...truly a freeing, life-changing experience for me.

Here are two of her quotes from the same publication:

The effort to earn salvation by one's own works inevitably leads men to pile up human exactions as a barrier against sin. For, seeing that they fail to keep the law, they will devise rules and regulations of their own to force themselves to obey. All this turns the mind away from God to self. His love dies out of the heart, and with it perishes love for his fellow men. A system of human invention, with its multitudinous exactions, will lead its advocates to judge all who come short of the prescribed human standard. The atmosphere of selfish and narrow criticism stifles the noble and generous emotions, and causes men to become self-centered judges and petty spies.

Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing page 123

It is the love of self that destroys our peace. While self is all alive, we stand ready continually to guard it from mortification and insult; but when we are dead, and our life is hid with Christ in God, we shall not take neglects or slights to heart. We shall be deaf to reproach and blind to scorn and insult. "Love sufferth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never faileth." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, R.V.

Happiness drawn from earthly sources is as changeable as varying circumstances can make it; but the peace of Christ is a constant and abiding peace. It does not depend upon any circumstances in life, on the amount of worldly goods or the number of earthly friends. Christ is the fountain of living water, and happiness drawn from Him can never fail.

Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing page 16

personally always thought that was an easy one in understanding but that's me.

basically before trusting in God/Jesus,all works come from selfish/sinful heart...when born again/heart changed from selfish towards unselfish then good works begin to come as a result/consequence.

and the character change iz a work in progress till we finally in our hearts and minds one day become like Jesus and the Rest of God in Loving Character.

Christopher

Faith produces Good Works not the other way around

i've noticed that some believers need a works system. They need the security of rules, hedges, authority. They seem to be content with their belief system. I dont rock the boat until they ask me to.

Their faith is in a God that forgives and shows grace.

david