Are we born sinful? Is sin our nature?

Psalms 51:5 NRSV Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.
Psalms 51:5 NET. Look, I was guilty of sin from birth, sinner the moment my mother conceived me.
Psalms 51:5 GNB I have been evil from the day I was born; from the time I was conceived, I have been sinful

Romans 5:12 NRSV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned--
Romans 5:12 NET. So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned —
Romans 5:12 GNB Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result, death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned.
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Romans 5:17 NET. For if, by the transgression of the one man, death reigned through the one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NET. (21) For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. (22) For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

OK - all have sinned. When? When does a baby first sin? Is he/she born sinful? Are babies sinful the moment they are conceived? Is sin nature, nurture, or nature and nurture?

I'd think yes to all of those questions, and both to the last. Correct me if I'm falling for an urban myth, but don't baby sharks in the womb eat each other before they're born? At the least I don't think fish teach each other how to kill, it seem to me they just intuitively know how to do it. My perspective has been that nature fell along with man, and sin became a part of its makeup.

My sense of things is that to be sinful, one must have moral consciousness. Big term, but I don't know how else to put it.

I don't think of a fertilized egg as being moral. I don't think it has consciousness.

Our flesh tempts the mind to submit to selfish desires. I believe that humans develop and at some point, develop to the degree that they are moral.

When developed this far, they naturally submit to the promptings of what they are most intimately bound to - their own flesh. And it is at this point they are sinful.

If all nature groans under the weight of sin, then is nature "sinful"?

Tony, I would assume that you would say that only humans can be sinful, because they make a conscious moral choice to sin, am I right? However, how does what you think match with the scripture verses I quoted? Psa 51 - I was sinful the moment I was conceived...

Sin is selfishness; and a baby is selfish and self-centered at birth--since the fall. It is demanding and love never demands its own way. It wants immediate gratification. The baby does not care if it's mother is tired or has to do the maternity shuffle to feed it. It is in the rawest of survival mode. Me, me. and more me. Narcisstic...that is why it is imparitive to train a child in the way it should go. The biggest miracle is when God transforms a person from survival mode to sacrificial mode, where love will lay down its life for its friends; compared to survival of the fittest and take care of numero uno.

And for nature suffering under the weight of sin--we watch the hummingbirds outside of our window...and sharing is not their strong suit. Even they need to be converted. The same holds true with the other birds at our feeder, the bullying that takes place even between sparrows. Then when the bigger birds arrive then the food chain really kicks in. The whole earth groans under the weight of sin...though it is interesting to watch the crows come to the aid of one of their own. So, even the Holy Spirit has some influence going on in nature; like when a dolphin saves a human, etc.

"Sin is selfishness; and a baby is selfish and self-centered at birth--since the fall". How does this happen? Why are babies self-centered, since the fall? What did the fall do to create this situation? So all creation groans under the weight of sin. How does that happen? How do hummingbirds become selfish? What is it with sin that causes that? How are the sins of the fathers visited on the children to the 3rd and 4th generation? How is it sin passed to all men because of Adam's transgression?

If I were keeping score on the question what sin is, I think the vote is:
Just Nature: 0
Just Nurture: 1
Nature and Nurture: 2

I have not voted... :-)

p.s., yes, bigger shark pups will eat smaller shark pups.

This event sheds a great deal of light upon the matter of conceiving and its related sin.

Gen 16:4-5
4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. KJV

Joe

What I like about you Joe is that you are so direct. And clear!

Was Ismael sinless when he was conceived? Was he sinless when he was born? Was Cain conceived in sin, or was he sinful the moment he was conceived?

Quote by: JBH

What I like about you Joe is that you are so direct. And clear!

Was Ismael sinless when he was conceived? Was he sinless when he was born? Was Cain conceived in sin, or was he sinful the moment he was conceived?

JBH,

The Scripture was clear that it was Hagar that did the despising of her mistress, Sarai.

"The woman was in the transgression."

Joe

But what about Ismael? Was he innocent or "guilty". Was he perfect or a sinner? Was he a sinner when he was conceived, or when he consciously choose to be a sinner?

Quote by: Joe

Quote by: JBH

What I like about you Joe is that you are so direct. And clear!

Was Ismael sinless when he was conceived? Was he sinless when he was born? Was Cain conceived in sin, or was he sinful the moment he was conceived?

JBH,

The Scripture was clear that it was Hagar that did the despising of her mistress, Sarai.

"The woman was in the transgression."

Joe