why would Jesus say that? egw says that they did know. Was there a bigger picture He was referring too?

also, Jesus knew in advance some of the actions Judas would take, Peter would take, and He could read the hearts of the people standing around Him and would tailor His messages just for them to understand or NOT to understand.

so, why would Jesus say 'they dont know what they are doing', and why would He ask God to 'forgive them'? what was He wanting to accomplish by asking saying this and asking this? did He not belive 'i and my Father are one' and 'i do only the will of Him that sent me' and all the rest of those statements?

I would think Jesus knew exactly what His Father was like, and therefore if Jesus had forgivin them in HIs heart already, God was doing the same thing at the same time.

And if egw is correct, and they did know what they were doing, what benefit was 'forgivness' going to be to them? i've read somewhere where 'even those who pierced Him' will see Jesus again one day. It makes one think they will not be saved. So, what good would 'forgiving' them do?

david

Quote by: david

why would Jesus say that? egw says that they did know. Was there a bigger picture He was referring too?

also, Jesus knew in advance some of the actions Judas would take, Peter would take, and He could read the hearts of the people standing around Him and would tailor His messages just for them to understand or NOT to understand.

so, why would Jesus say 'they dont know what they are doing', and why would He ask God to 'forgive them'? what was He wanting to accomplish by asking saying this and asking this? did He not belive 'i and my Father are one' and 'i do only the will of Him that sent me' and all the rest of those statements?

I would think Jesus knew exactly what His Father was like, and therefore if Jesus had forgivin them in HIs heart already, God was doing the same thing at the same time.

And if egw is correct, and they did know what they were doing, what benefit was 'forgivness' going to be to them? i've read somewhere where 'even those who pierced Him' will see Jesus again one day. It makes one think they will not be saved. So, what good would 'forgiving' them do?

david

It is important to remember that there are different words for forgiveness. Apheimi--I read somewhere that it is the Removal of Guilt From One's Own Psyche--not a legal pardon but rather a cleansing of the mind that needs to occur for us to realize what God has done and is doing for us.

If we confess our sins,He is faithful and just and will forgive (apheimi) us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

When they came to the place called 'the Skull',there they crucified him, along with the criminals—
one on his right, the other on his left.Jesus said,"Father, forgive (apheimi) them,for they do not know what they are doing." Luke 23:33-34

So if what I heard is correct, it would seem that Jesus was asking the Father to take away their guilt that would keep them from being able to see what God was doing. Was Paul one of them? He certainly watched the stoning of Stephen where Stephen said the same words as Jesus. Why?

Could it be that the same condition (sin) that causes us to feel separated from God needed to be removed before Paul and maybe Nicodemus and others who were blinded by their false religious mindset needed God to remove the wall of separation and the scales from their eyes so that they could see clearly. As a matter of fact we all need that!

Why the public conversation with His Father? Maybe it was for a public witness that He, Jesus held no ill will against His tormenters. I think it was for an example of how we should treat our enemies and also the way that Jesus expressed forgiveness to those on the ground hating Him at the time, especially Peter and Judas-- if they had known Jesus enough to hang around would remember that Jesus forgave them too. I think Judas was forgiven--God did all He could for him, but his heart remained unreconciled due to his choice to ignore the pleading of the Holy Spirit.

It is important to remember this:

While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 1 John 3:20

It is up to us if we want to listen to God's Spirit and be reconciled to God, but forgiveness is God's character--it is what He does-- if we continue to ignore His voice we will eventually refuse to be reconciled with Him.

Cherie

Quote by: david

why would Jesus say that? egw says that they did know. Was there a bigger picture He was referring too?

also, Jesus knew in advance some of the actions Judas would take, Peter would take, and He could read the hearts of the people standing around Him and would tailor His messages just for them to understand or NOT to understand.

so, why would Jesus say 'they dont know what they are doing', and why would He ask God to 'forgive them'? what was He wanting to accomplish by asking saying this and asking this? did He not belive 'i and my Father are one' and 'i do only the will of Him that sent me' and all the rest of those statements?

I would think Jesus knew exactly what His Father was like, and therefore if Jesus had forgivin them in HIs heart already, God was doing the same thing at the same time.

And if egw is correct, and they did know what they were doing, what benefit was 'forgivness' going to be to them? i've read somewhere where 'even those who pierced Him' will see Jesus again one day. It makes one think they will not be saved. So, what good would 'forgiving' them do?

david

david,

The following testimony of the spirit is a guide in this matter.

1 Cor 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. KJV

Knowledge of "facts" is good and useful, but it is an incomplete medium of communication. The mystery of God in his hidden wisdom is given unto us in Jesus. This is not knowledge as written in alphabetical characters that we read academically through which we perform our daily duties.

And another testimony of the spirit of Jesus.
1 Cor 8:2
2 And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. KJV

Joe

hey cherie. where did you read that? here it is from the greek lexicon, it's a verb: 1. to send away
1. to bid going away or depart
1. of a husband divorcing his wife
2. to send forth, yield up, to expire
3. to let go, let alone, let be
1. to disregard
2. to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic) 1c
2. of teachers, writers and speakers
1. to omit, neglect
1. to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
2. to give up, keep no longer
3. to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
4. to leave, go way from one
1. in order to go to another place
2. to depart from any one
3. to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
4. to desert wrongfully
5. to go away leaving something behind
6. to leave one by not taking him as a companion
7. to leave on dying, leave behind one
8. to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
9. abandon, leave destitute

Translated Words
KJV (146) - forgive, 47; forsake, 6; leave, 52; let, 8; let alone, 6; misc, 13; suffer,14;

in the context of the situation and knowing Jesus, which would it be?

i guess it would be translated according to how one pictures Jesus.

david

Hey Joe. i agree with you totally.

david

Quote by: david

hey cherie. where did you read that? here it is from the greek lexicon, it's a verb: 1. to send away
1. to bid going away or depart
1. of a husband divorcing his wife
2. to send forth, yield up, to expire
3. to let go, let alone, let be
1. to disregard
2. to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic) 1c
2. of teachers, writers and speakers
1. to omit, neglect
1. to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
2. to give up, keep no longer
3. to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
4. to leave, go way from one
1. in order to go to another place
2. to depart from any one
3. to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
4. to desert wrongfully
5. to go away leaving something behind
6. to leave one by not taking him as a companion
7. to leave on dying, leave behind one
8. to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
9. abandon, leave destitute

Translated Words
KJV (146) - forgive, 47; forsake, 6; leave, 52; let, 8; let alone, 6; misc, 13; suffer,14;

in the context of the situation and knowing Jesus, which would it be?

i guess it would be translated according to how one pictures Jesus.

david

Hey David,

There is more to a definition that the words used to describe it, there is also the way the word is used. In this case the tense of the verb or the ownership of the action is not about God, but about the people Jesus was talking about.

For instance, take the one word for forgiveness "Charizomai" is indicative of the emotions or feelings of one who has been harmed, while the word alpheimi is indicative of a change in the perpetrator. The meaning requires more than the simple definition but also the exact tense of the word and how it is used.

But take the words above and consider that the tense of the word is not for a change in the Father or Jesus, but for a change in the perpetrator. In other words, Jesus was asking the Father to cause them to send forth or let go of their sins and not hang on to their pain--thus removing the guilt from their pyches so that they could not feel separated from God. This definition is even more amazing when we realize that we all killed Jesus with our sins and do it again every time we neglect following Him. Jesus was praying for us and those who killed Him, to let go of our sins so that we could be free to come to God--so that our sins would no longer separate us.

While the word Charizomai means for the injured to sustain the cost and hold no ill will toward those who have injured him. In other words, God holds no bad feelings toward us even though we have hurt Him and continue to sin. Which is backed up by the verses that say that God does not change. His heart toward us is stationary!

The change that needs to take place is not in God's heart, but in our hearts.

I hope this was a little helpful. Herb Montgomery's new book is amazing and the chapter titled "He Frankly Forgave" has some great insights into this.

God bless,

Cherie

PS I got this from LBM Herb M., but I have seen others discuss it who are not SDA.

Quote by: david

And if egw is correct, and they did know what they were doing, what benefit was 'forgivness' going to be to them? i've read somewhere where 'even those who pierced Him' will see Jesus again one day. It makes one think they will not be saved. So, what good would 'forgiving' them do?

God doesn't forgive us for our benefit. He forgives because He is forgiving. He forgives whether we ever accept that forgiveness or not. Satan and all the rest of the wicked will die totally forgiven.

Jesus of Nazareth was made unto us, of God, wisdom. Yet not the wisdom that God gave to the Greeks.

Who was made unto us of God, knowledge?

Wisdom is formed when two elements of knowledge join into a compound.

Then when wisdom gains experience it is given understanding.

After understanding, peace appears; the peace that passes understanding, through the love that is beyond knowledge.

Knowledge is holy, just and good. It is elemental. It must needs be buried in the dirt that the plant of wisdom can spring forth. Wisdom must needs grow up into a vigorous plant with branches and leaves. Then blossom and bud and fruit must spring forth. Then the fruit must be harvested/separated from the branches and gathered into a place of usefulness.

Jesus went to prepare a place for us, that we might be gathered unto him where he is and serve in his temple as priests in his ministry. We will serve on the earth.

Joe

Quote by: kelley Satan and all the rest of the wicked will die totally forgiven.

Yes! Exactly! That is the wonder of God's love, and the awfulness of sin. The forgiveness isn't the problem - sin is! So even God's forgiveness doesn't help unless we are willing to let go of the sin. (Note I said "willing" not "able".) This is the point that I wish I could get my forensic friends to understand. It's not that we discount God's forgiveness. No, God is forgiveness personified. It is rather that God's forgiveness or lack there of is not the problem! Forgiveness is freely offered. It is that forgiveness doesn't necessarily bring about reconciliation and healing. And that is what we need to be saved from the consequences of sin - after we are "forgiven" we need to be reconciled to the Great Physician and healed of our deadly disease. (And I think that is true even if you accept the idea that it was necessary for Jesus to die on the cross for God to forgive us!)

Mark

Quote by: mark

Quote by: kelley Satan and all the rest of the wicked will die totally forgiven.

Yes! Exactly! That is the wonder of God's love, and the awfulness of sin. The forgiveness isn't the problem - sin is! So even God's forgiveness doesn't help unless we are willing to let go of the sin. (Note I said "willing" not "able".) This is the point that I wish I could get my forensic friends to understand. It's not that we discount God's forgiveness. No, God is forgiveness personified. It is rather that God's forgiveness or lack there of is not the problem! Forgiveness is freely offered. It is that forgiveness doesn't necessarily bring about reconciliation and healing. And that is what we need to be saved from the consequences of sin - after we are "forgiven" we need to be reconciled to the Great Physician and healed of our deadly disease. (And I think that is true even if you accept the idea that it was necessary for Jesus to die on the cross for God to forgive us!)

Mark

Mark,

Yes, it is no longer I that do it but sin that dwells within me (that is in my flesh). Willingness is present with me, but I cannot find the way to perform the good. If I do not perform the good I will perish. Only the doers of the law will be justified in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.

Even though I have tasted of the powers of the life to come, if I am found a transgressor at the coming of Christ, I will cry for the rocks to fall upon me. How can I be set free from transgressing?

Joe