yeah, i know, here we go again.

i am among those who firmly believe God will have a remnant who perfectly represent Him before He comes again.

but i am wondering if He is also waiting for a people who truly understand Him, His ways, also.

and do we have to truly understand Him and His ways before we can "perfectly represent" Him?

in these discussion forums "does God kill" comes up regularly, and is ferociously attacked with not Christlike tactics by many or just straight out dismissed without thought. while i find some statements that appear quite clear and i do not wish to explain them away i also discover more about God and His ways in searching the scriptures/sop/pioneers when it comes to this subject.

there isnt a religion or nonreligion that doesnt believe that God gives life and God takes life away. it is the common denominator of every group on this planet.

if our mission is the 3 angels messages, the very first thing the first angel is doing is spreading the gospel. course now the problem is, what exactly is the gospel?

is the gospel, "i came down, lived a perfect life and died for you so you better accept it and shape up or i'll incinerate you and that most horrible as possible"? or is it possible we will be incinerated but by a different method than God doing it?


2Ch 20:2 Then there came some that told Jehoshaphat, saying, There cometh a great multitude against thee from beyond the sea on this side Syria; and, behold, they be in Hazazontamar, which is Engedi.... 22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten. 23 For the children of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of mount Seir, utterly to slay and destroy them: and when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, every one helped to destroy another. 24 And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.

was God always able to defeat enemies in this method if the israelites had been wholeheartedly devoted to God from the start, even before going to egypt? is there a deeper lesson in this story above? (the whole story needs to be studied because it is referred to as an end battle also. Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land...Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. aka battle of armegeddon. )


so the questions are:
1. what is the gospel?

2. does sin kill or does God kill you if you sin?

and probably some others i am not thinking of at the moment.

Hi teresaq,

First off, I hope this topic stays on track and by that I mean, there is no discussion around whether or not the perfection you speak of will take place. Not that I have any say, of course. But, it is my preference. If folks want to talk about that, I hope another topic is opened and this topic can include the criteria of: this assumes perfection.

Anyway, with that, a couple of thoughts.


One
If you look at the book of Hebrews, under one covenant, the worshippers retain a consciousness of sins. Under another covenant, they do not. With that, I have two main points. One is that whatever produces this last day perfection, if one is a true worshipper, it works! Conversely, in the absence of whatever produces this perfection in that last days, no one is perfected!

If the above is true, a lot of the purported methodologies out there would seem to not be compatible for the simple reason that they seem to require something almost exceptional, something above true faith in God and His only begotten.

The other point is that if the worshipers all have this experience some day, it would sure seem to follow that the GRACE available to them is of a different order. One way of saying this is to state the converse. Since all worshipers presently retain a consciousness of sins, it would seem to follow that they lack the grace that produces a better experience.


Two
What of 1844? It is the Day of Atonement when God's people have this experience (no consciousness of sin). 1844, then, is the inauguration of the day of atonement where it is a parallel to the day of atonement of Israel. Using the terminology of Hebrews 10:1-4, it is a shadow of another reality (another understanding/another grace) which other reality is described as "very image."

The faithful proceeded from the cattle yard to Calvary, but this need not necessitate that their understanding went from shadow to very image.


Three
The Contribution of Jeremiah. The following flavor permeates the book.

Jeremiah 38:17-18
17 Then Jeremiah said to Zedekiah, "Thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel: 'If you surely surrender to the king of Babylon's princes, then your soul shall live; this city shall not be burned with fire, and you and your house shall live. 18 But if you do not surrender to the king of Babylon's princes, then this city shall be given into the hand of the Chaldeans; they shall burn it with fire, and you shall not escape from their hand.' "

Is there a last day application to a kind of prophecy that calls Israel to submit to Babylon?

Babylon has many characteristics, but I think its chief characteristic is that it denies that salvation is possible. If condemnation is inherent to a sinful conscience, salvation is just what Jones and Waggoner said it was - to be made righteous. It is the formation of a righteous character.

Babylon denies this (of course, not realizing that this is what salvation is).

I suggest that the following is what it means to surrender to Babylon:

It means surrendering to the truth that in our present form, salvation is impossible.

In other words, it means coming to the realization that perfection of character is IMPOSSIBLE under the present understanding of things.

Another way of putting it is this:
Realizing that 1844 was not the TRUE day of atonement, but a shadowy representation of the true. And as the day of atonement is the capstone of understanding and if 1844 is shadow, realizing the following:

The formation of Adventism was the formation of the capstone of the old covenant Christianity has been under since Calvary.

If so, Adventism must metaphorically surrender to Babylon (perfection/salvation is impossible within the present understanding of things).

Adventism must do what Israel was supposed to do. Israel could not find salvation with the blood of bulls and goats and it had to ultimately surrender to the truth that its system of understanding was a shadowy representation of something else.

Likewise, Adventism must surrender to the same. It must be the vehicle through which a last day change in covenant is brought about.

This means that Adventism must traverse. It must rearrange its mandate. It is time to realize that perfection is not possible under the present circumstances and yet realize another mandate.

To use highly metaphorical terminology, Adventism must unseal the prophecies or to put another way, it must usher in the Elijah message for when Elijah comes, he makes Christ KNOWN to Israel (John 1).

This will usher in the experience of a new kind of grace which is a perception of Christ in the realm of feelings. He despised the SHAME, that being His very image death. And His victory being His very image resurrection.


Tony

tony, if you will notice i said:

i am among those who firmly believe God will have a remnant who perfectly represent Him before He comes again.

you said:

there is no discussion around whether or not the perfection you speak of will take place. ... and this topic can include the criteria of: this assumes perfection.

my question is, is that the same thing? are we speaking of the same thing and is it the same picture? or was that redundant?

or what picture does that, those words, either set of words, conjure up in our minds?

the subject itself touches several points, to which i believe topics need to be started on each issue separately, tho im sure they have been gone over indepth already.

Quote by: teresaq
the subject itself touches several points, to which i believe topics need to be started on each issue separately, tho im sure they have been gone over indepth already.[/p]

teresa,

When I was a young boy I asked my father why he cultivated the crops even though all the weeds were gone. He said that as he lightly ran the cultivator over the ground that the moisture deeper in the ground would rise up to water the crops, and that it kept the soil from cracking open in the hot summer sun.

We have not emptied the barrel.

Joe

I think we're still here because God needs to show what his Kingdom looks like when really put into practice, even here in this dark world. I want to be part of that "demonstration project".

Quote by: mark

I think we're still here because God needs to show what his Kingdom looks like when really put into practice, even here in this dark world. I want to be part of that "demonstration project".

Mark,

Yes, his kingdom comes upon us that his will may be done in earth (in our hearts and minds) as it is (being done) in heaven. This is the fruit of his name being hallowed unto us in heaven (when our names are written above).

Luke 10:18-20
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. KJV

Joe

Hi Teresa,

My take on this subject is pretty simple. Jesus said plainly that the end would come after one thing happened -- when the gospel was preached to the world. So, in my simple way of thinking about things, that hasn't happened yet. This is not surprising, considering that the majority of Christianity (including Adventism) has no clue what the gospel really is and that it's not about you and me.

To answer the questions you posed:

1) The gospel is the good news about God's character. (That's a simple way of saying something that needs to be greatly expanded and unpacked.)

2) Sin kills, not God. This is but part of #1.

Hey teresa,

my question is, is that the same thing? are we speaking of the same thing and is it the same picture?

Oh, I didn't know you wanted to discuss this! (I thought you wanted to discuss how we get there.) Far from me to sabatoge your topic!

Perfection is a pure character. No stain of sin.

I believe the core Adventist doctrine to be its enhancement of the atonement, particularly its split atonement idea. It was understood that Christ has three offices.

Sacrifice => Priest => King

and it was understood that Christ's work as Priest precedes the 2nd coming. When Christ is King, those that are His are completely His. There is no imperfection in allegiance. To use metaphor, the priestly robes (those He wore in His work of purification from sin) have been replaced with the garments of a King (His are entirely His as evidenced by character).

For just one example, the above stands in stark contrast to the idea that our characters are made spotless via the actual second coming. This cannot be for character change is wrought out by Christ as Priest and this He will no longer be some time before He comes to take His own.


Tony

Quote by: mark

I think we're still here because God needs to show what his Kingdom looks like when really put into practice, even here in this dark world. I want to be part of that "demonstration project".

so we would have to have a clear picture of what that looks like, wouldnt we? how do we get that picture? wouldnt we still have to "perfectly represent" Him in order to "put into practice" that kingdom? (and my apologies for when i fail in doing so.)

Quote by: kelley

My take on this subject is pretty simple. Jesus said plainly that the end would come after one thing happened -- when the gospel was preached to the world. So, in my simple way of thinking about things, that hasn't happened yet. This is not surprising, considering that the majority of Christianity (including Adventism) has no clue what the gospel really is and that it's not about you and me.

To answer the questions you posed:

1) The gospel is the good news about God's character. (That's a simple way of saying something that needs to be greatly expanded and unpacked.)

2) Sin kills, not God. This is but part of #1.

i have this going on a few boards in an effort to get people to think, and because i want to study more.

so what is the gospel if it isnt

"i came down, lived a perfect life and died for you so you better accept it and shape up or i'll incinerate you and that most horrible as possible"?

i mean, isnt that essentially the universal belief, even among "heathen" and "pagans"?

Quote by: Tony

Hey teresa,

my question is, is that the same thing? are we speaking of the same thing and is it the same picture?

Oh, I didn't know you wanted to discuss this! (I thought you wanted to discuss how we get there.) Far from me to sabatoge your topic!

Perfection is a pure character. No stain of sin.

I believe the core Adventist doctrine to be its enhancement of the atonement, particularly its split atonement idea. It was understood that Christ has three offices.

Sacrifice => Priest => King

and it was understood that Christ's work as Priest precedes the 2nd coming. When Christ is King, those that are His are completely His. There is no imperfection in allegiance. To use metaphor, the priestly robes (those He wore in His work of purification from sin) have been replaced with the garments of a King (His are entirely His as evidenced by character).

For just one example, the above stands in stark contrast to the idea that our characters are made spotless via the actual second coming. This cannot be for character change is wrought out by Christ as Priest and this He will no longer be some time before He comes to take His own.


Tony

Tony,

Once a sacrifice, always a sacrifice. A Lamb, as it were slain, standing in the middle of the throne...

Once a priest, always a priest. You are a priest forever... after Melchisedec.

Once a king (kingdom), always a king (servant of all). Sit here until...

Like electrical wiring, there is continuity (in the ohms). Ohms are neither positive or neutral (ground). Neither circumcision or uncircumcision avails anything but...

Joe