Vengeance is Mine

I remember one particular scene in The Passion Of The Christ that really impacted me greatly: it was where the Roman centurian was hammering the spike into Jesus' feet, and as the blood spurted Jesus cries out "Father forgive them!" Not until I actually saw that scene played out instead of merely reading it did I understand how selfless and loving was Christ. I have to be honest; my first gut reaction to the scene was not my finest moment. It went something like this: "I'd like to plant that freaking hammer square between your eyes you sadistic, evil b******!" as I spit on the theater floor. Well, needless to say, I realized how far I have to go to even come close to reflecting the loving, forgiving nature of our Lord. Alas, corrupted by sin as I am, I sometimes submit to my carnal being and it ain't always pretty.

The Bible tells us that there will be a reckoning. We will be judged by our works. It wouldn't make sense for sin to go unpunished or that no one would have anything to answer for. But I have to trust that God knows what He is doing in His infinite mercy, and that whatever He does will be just and true to His loving character.

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Michael,
You said:
<The Bible tells us that there will be a reckoning. We will be judged by our works. It wouldn't make sense for sin to go unpunished or that no one would have anything to answer for. But I have to trust that God knows what He is doing in His infinite mercy, and that whatever He does will be just and true to His loving character.>

We exist in the meantime though right? So until the wicked receive there reward what is our role? Do we help God out a little by serving human justice a bit here, a bit there? You know, sock it to 'em, especially those liars and scumbags who are good for nothing. Or are we to extend our hand even to the ugly, the rude, the thief, the drug addict, the murderer?
Jesus has called us to not only extend our hand but also our hearts. The only way I see that we can fulfill the law of love even to our enemies is by our deliberate actions, deliberately loving them as Jesus loves them.
Oh the blessing we miss out on when we refuse to allow God to show us the awesome power He so wishes to impart.

Notice I didn't say this is an easy feat.

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I absolutely agree with you Stacie. The Bible says 'judge not lest you be judged'. Judging here does not mean taking a stand against sin, which we should do, but rather it rebukes those taking on the role of God or those who point out someone else's faults just to make themselves look better. Our role as Christians, who are sinners as well, is to, in love and humility, gently guide non-believers on the right path. This means showing thier error in a way that reflects how Jesus would do it-not being condemnatory. True love will not excuse or condone sin, but it will reveal the better way, the way of holiness and Christ. And in the words of Ellen White; unless you are willing to die for that person, you are better off keeping your mouth shut.

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I see God's vengeance as winning His emenies, and ours to love and trust, thereby making them safe to save for heaven, back to when I saw "THE PASSION" I was struck with how awful was the injustice of scourging of Christ then killing Him. I was wondering later if God was showing us through the story with Pilate having Jesus whipped then killed that this kind of treatment is so injust even from a human point of view that it cannot be God's way either to torture beforhand those [wicked]who have the death sentence [second death]upon them. it serves no purpose to torture anyone ,one cannot pay for anything that way , we cannot [unring the bell] so to speak, in case anyone would think that Jesus paid a debt so the wicked must pay too, sin its not a legal problem , but one of damage that needs total healing, plus,the one who does the torturing looks really bad, And God is not bad, it is cause and effect that is in play, If God could have willing co-operation from His enemies they would be turned into healed friends ["set right and kept right"] of their misconceptions of Him , that is what has damaged us, we don't see God as He truly . In the end it would have to be the same for God as He said in His word for how we are to treat our enemies.Just as God demonsrated at the cross when he gave up His son.Has not God has asked us to pray for our enemies ?, to always be kind and gracious at all times ?, and that same God who asked that of us will be kind and gracious to his enemies, and terribly sad to give them up and to be forever separated from Him .. there is so much more to search out about God , it can't be so cruel and simple as to say of this Creator God who is love, that He will visit vengeance on you for not loving and obeying Him by burning you as long as you deserve.....never .. never in my mind.

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Sandy S

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Welcome Sandy! Nice to see you here!

I appreciated your comments and wanted you to know that I agree with you.

In His Love,

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[ Marco Belmonte ]

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Okay, I think I need to do this right now.

In order to avoid misunderstandings on this website concerning my beliefs in regards to the fate of Satan, his demons, and those who choose to follow him, I am going to issue my official belief statement on this link. I am not coming off very well here for some reason...

First, for the benefit of those who do not know me, I am a pastor and I love Jesus with all my heart. As you may have noticed by now, my theology is not entirely the same as most of you who visit this site and enjoy the message being promoted here. Marco, Stacie and Dion are good friends of mine, and I love all of them to death. Please do not take my opposing comments as an effort on my part to be subversive or undermine the beautiful messsage of God's character that they are trying to promote here. I honestly feel that Adventism is in dire need of knowing God's merciful, loving character on a more intimate, personal basis, which is why I like to dialogue here and promote this site.

However, there are theological differences between us, and we recognize and respect each other for it.

It has become apparent that the major issue that continually seems to arise time and time again, is regarding God and how He will deal with certain parties when He returns. Here, for the record, is what I believe:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations in the four corners of the earth to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from Heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him whom was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from His presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:7-15 (NIV)

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-thier place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Revelation 21:8 (NIV)

This is not meant to instill fear. This is straight from Scripture. I do not endorse fear-mongering and have always fought against it in my ministry. Christ has made gracious provision for everyone to be saved, and those who accept His salvation, mercy and love will spend eternity with Jesus. Thier sins are forgiven and covered. But those who reject His mercy and love, and want no part of Him, will have to answer for thier own works, without a Saviour. The Bible says there remains no more sacrifice for them.

I used to be Catholic. I was taught that the wicked burn forever and ever. I rejected that vile, demonic doctrine long ago, and believe it is totally contrary to the love and mercy of the Heavenly Father. I gladly recieved the message of Adventism which states, with full Biblical support, that the wicked are consumed immediately by fire from Heaven, sent by God. I learned that it is the RESULTS of the punishment that are eternal, NOT the punishment itself. The Bible tells us that the wicked will be as ashes under our feet, they are no more. Gone for eternity. I also believe, in accordance with Scripture, that the lake of fire was meant for Satan and his demons, NOT for any human being. However, as a result of thier free choice they have aligned with Satan, and, ultimately, must suffer the same fate as he.

Those who are familiar with Ellen White and her writings will, no doubt, be aware that she states in the Great Controversy that some will burn longer than others. I have some trouble accepting this theory, as I do not see Biblical support for it. It also strikes me as cruel on the part of God to do this. I believe that the wicked are annhialated, totally and quickly. However, I do believe that Satan will have the most to answer for at the judement bar of God. I also believe that Satan was and is loved by God, and that to ultimately destroy him will be one of the hardest things God will ever have to do. He was the covering cherub in Heaven, and this is a tragic end for Lucifer.

The staff at Heavenly Sanctuary.com believe that it is the natural results of sin that cause the death of the wicked, and that it is ultimately God's glory that destroys them, with no active role on the part of the Lord. I believe that this will happen initially, but that there is more to the Judgement than this alone. However, I respect this belief and have no desire to convince anyone otherwise. For me, this is not an issue of salvation, and I honestly don't enjoy having to explain my position with this, because it IS at such odds with the status quo here. I want to be liked just as much as anyone else! :)

In closing, I am not a sadist, I do not want revenge on my enemies, and I do not have marshmellows ready to toast over that fire. I believe it will be a sad, awful time, and I wish the Bible didn't say it would happen.

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Michael,

You know what I love about you? Is that even though we have several points that we don't totally align up on, we've both demonstrated that throughout our friendship OUR LOVE FOR EACH OTHER SUPERSEDED OUR OPINIONS!

I respect your thoughtful post and want you to know that even though I enjoy theological discussions with you, our friendship is the most important thing to me.

I'm certain Dion and Stacie both feel the same way.

You are not some second rate member here - just because you view the judgment differently! - you have been an honorable and loving supporter since day one, and I hope you always find this place your Internet home :-)

Thanks my dear brother!


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[ Marco Belmonte ]

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Dear Brother Michael,

How eloquent your words are and if anyone here does not see the love in them...well, what can I say? I've said if before and I will say it again, we have more in common than not.

On Pentecost, the bretheren were united not because they were little stepford christians nodding their little heads on every subject, no way! They put self aside and when God's children decide as a whole to put self aside we will see the sky on fire!

I see that day as coming quickly.

I love you much Michael,
Stacie

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